{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/z89280655g/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Deep Energy Literacy Podcast: S4E1: Deep Solarities with Sheena Wilson"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/128/original/UA_Logo_WHT_RGB_%281%29.png?1725471982","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Series or Event Name"]},"value":{"en":["Just Powers Podcast"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["Jessie Beier talks to Professor Sheena Wilson about solar energy and energy transition, and the meaing of Solarity. (summary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003ca href=\"http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/\"\u003eCC0 1.0 Universal (CC0 1.0) Public Domain Dedication\u003c/a\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2020-03-17 (issued)","2020-03-30 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Podcast","Interview"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Wilson, Sheena (Just Powers) (Principal investigator)","Wilson, Sheena (Producer)","Beier, Jessie (Producer)","Wilson, Sheena (Interviewee)","Beier, Jessie (Interviewer)","Catlin Kuzyk (Recordist)","Catlin Kuzyk (Sound editor)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject"]},"value":{"en":["Energy transition (topical)","solar energy (topical)","feminism (topical)","capitalism (topical)","energy systems (topical)","World (spatial)","North and Central America (spatial)","Canada (spatial)","Alberta (spatial)","Edmonton (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Relation"]},"value":{"en":["\u003ca href=\"https://www.justpowers.ca/podcast/s4e1-deep-solarities-w-sheena-wilson/\"\u003ehttps://www.justpowers.ca/podcast/s4e1-deep-solarities-w-sheena-wilson/\u003c/a\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["Just Powers"]}}],"summary":{"en":["Jessie Beier talks to Professor Sheena Wilson about solar energy and energy transition, and the meaing of Solarity."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003ca href=\"http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/\"\u003eCC0 1.0 Universal (CC0 1.0) Public Domain Dedication\u003c/a\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["University of Alberta Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["University of Alberta Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/128/original/UA_Logo_WHT_RGB_%281%29.png?1725471982","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/162/692/small/Screen_Shot_2025-02-03_at_11.23.18_AM.png?1738611798","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - DeepEnergyLiteracyPodcast_Solarities.mp3"]},"duration":2736.19733,"width":640,"height":40,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/162/692/small/Screen_Shot_2025-02-03_at_11.23.18_AM.png?1738611798","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-ualberta.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/162/692/original/DeepEnergyLiteracyPodcast_Solarities.mp3?1657825954","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2736.19733,"width":640,"height":40},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English Transcript- Deep Energy Literacy Podcast: S4E1: Deep Solarities with Sheena Wilson (17/03/2020) [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dr. Sheena Wilson (","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=0.0,1.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): You are listening to the Deep Energy Literacy Podcast, part of just powers an interdisciplinary and community engaged network of research projects focused on climate justice issues and socially just approaches to energy transition. I'm Dr. Sheena Wilson and in this podcast we explore the idea of deep energy literacy. In this first series titled Deep Similarities, we begin by investigating questions, issues, challenges, and potentials of solar energy. Specifically, this series will shed light on a solar energy infrastructure project proposed for installation in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada on Treaty six territory. This solar project proposed by Epcor, the municipal utility for installation at their El Smith water treatment plant has evoked a range of divergent and sometimes unanticipated responses and imaginaries as stakeholders speculate about what futures are possible and preferable at the intersections of energy futures, ecological futures, indigenous futures on land rights, feminist futures, municipal futures and climate futures to name. But a few through a series of interviews that seek to explore these diverse perspectives, we examine both the perceived challenges and potentials of this energy transition project focused on deep energy literacy. We look to these conversations for insights into approaches and strategies that have the potential to disrupt power relations and create more just energy futures for all.\n\nJessie Beier (","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=1.0,93.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): Hello, and thank you for listening to the Just Powers Deep Energy Literacy podcast. I'm Jesse Byer, producer for the podcast, and in this episode I sit down with Dr. Sheena Wilson to discuss the impetus for this series, which is focused on deep similarities as well as her broader research program and thoughts on energy transition. Today I am so excited to talk to you about all of these things. So excited to talk about the solar project and the other things you've been thinking about around deep energy literacy. Yeah, me too.\n\nDr. Sheena Wilson (","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=93.0,122.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): I've actually really been looking forward to just chatting and thinking through this and thinking my way through these complex problems and doing it a bit together with you in tandem because I've been doing a lot of thinking with me in my screen and it's nice to have somebody to think\n\nJessie Beier (","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=122.0,137.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): With. Totally. I thought we could start by chatting a little bit about how you became interested in the solar project, specifically the one that slated for the Edmonton River Valley.\n\nDr. Sheena Wilson (","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=137.0,147.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): Right. That's a kind of interesting story actually. So I think I'm quite well known locally for working on issues related to what I term deep energy literacy and working on petro culture and energy transition and ecologies of all sorts and social justice. And then there was a point sometime in 2018 when people from all different parts of my life started coming up to me and saying, have you heard about the El Smith solar proposal and what do you think about this? And many of them were very up in arms and they were not the people that I would expect to be upset about a solar project. They are activists who've invested time and energy into solar commenting projects, and they're people who are really worried about conservation and energy transition and ecologies as well. And so suddenly my ears perked up because I had seen this proposal come across a committee table that I belong to. So I started to pay much closer attention and to follow it and to really start to drill down about why these unusual suspects were upset about the El Smith solar farm. And as time went on, the things that were revealed became much, much more interesting because what people were upset about in 2018 are not necessarily the same things that they were upset about by 2019.\n\nJessie Beier (","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=147.0,226.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): Wow. And I think that speaks to some of the things that you're interested in, in terms of your broader kind of research program, and that is how these kinds of community projects or projects within, in this case, municipalities on the one hand, the responses that they get from different parts of the public, different communities, but also how these projects reveal the complexity of new energy projects or energy transition projects. So yeah, I was wondering if you wanted to speak a little bit more about that in terms of how this case study in a way, or this kind of what's happening in Edmonton maybe relates to some of the broader questions you're asking about energy transition and what you also call deep energy literacy.\n\nDr. Sheena Wilson (","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=226.0,267.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): So deep energy literacy is a term that I've been talking about for a few years now. I think before this idea of energy justice had become popular and a common phrase, and for me, deep energy literacy is an understanding of how energy shapes our societies and our lives and the ways in which energy permeate the energy systems that are built up in our world permeate every facet of our life in very complex ways. And I guess what one could think of it as is maybe a more holistic worldview. I argue against these ways in which we think about energy or natural resources or water or whatever it is in these very siloed categories that just simply don't work because the world is an interconnected place. Of course, when you think about things in that way, they're more complicated. It's hard to get things done and it demands something additional from us all.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=267.0,324.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): But I really do believe that having not used a deep energy literacy lens is how we've ended up in this problem, this siloing of issues until one person's solution is creating the next person's problem. And while that might create a great employment cycle, now that we're at a point in which we're using 2.5 planets to sustain ourselves, we need to think differently about how we live in the world and live relationally. So for me, for example, there is no way of thinking about energy transition without thinking about reconciliation or the missing and murdered indigenous women or the oppression of people of color or whatever the social justice issues are because all of these issues are part of complex relations of power that are organized and organized themselves and have been intentionally organized around controlling the energy systems that power our communities and our global economy.\n\nJessie Beier (","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=324.0,381.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): I think that you explained really well the kind of complex nature of some of these phenomenon, some of these kinds of questions around energy transition. And in this series, the focus is not just on kind of deep energy literacy and energy transition broadly, but more specifically on the potentials and challenges of solar energy. So solar energy is one of many kind of renewable propositions or propositions for renewable energy. And at first glance, maybe it seems promising there's many ways in which solar is sold as this kind of very bright solution maybe to energy transition questions and just energy transition more generally. But as I've learned from your work, this shifts to something like solar energy of course is not inherently liberatory. There are many complex factors at play. So I was curious to hear a little bit more about your thoughts on maybe solar specifically and stemming off your deep energy literacy work, this idea of deep solarity. So how might solar play into the provocations on deep energy literacy?\n\nDr. Sheena Wilson (","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=381.0,445.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): So taking the vocabulary that we've developed as part of the energy humanities community, I've been thinking about similarities and we've been thinking together and we've been thinking with the after oil community as well. And we went to Montreal in the spring and had a workshop on feminist similarities that ran alongside a lot of other kinds of similarities. And I've been thinking about the fact that a lot of this work that I do kind of consolidated as an intellectual community or a scholarly community around the cultures research group that I co-founded and co-direct now. And that started in 2012. And so if we think the word petro culture, which then later really birthed the discipline of the energy humanities as it gained momentum and in a very rapid way for me, the link between thinking solar and thinking petro culture is that if we don't think meaningfully using the tools of deep energy literacy that help us to understand the deeply interconnected relations that we all have, that all of the ecosystems of the world have, that people have to land, et cetera, et cetera, then we're just going to repeat the same mistakes.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=445.0,523.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): And so I wondered if maybe deep celebrities might be a solution that comes out of deep energy literacies, that's a positive remaking of those power relations organized around physical infrastructures of a new energy system and the way more socially equitable relations, social relations, and multi-species relations and ecological relations have been built up around that energy system. I dunno, those are just the things that I'm thinking through because one of my concerns, one of the things that I have argued from the very beginning of doing all of this research is that we don't want to fetishize oil or energy in any way because when we say in some way that oil is bad and it has created all of these negative things, then that also makes a space to imagine that if say solar is good, it will produce all of these fabulous things. And that's not how the world works. Oil is not inherently bad. Oil does nothing. Oil is a substance. It is an outcome of basically an outcome of what it's\n\nJessie Beier (","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=523.0,594.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): Like. Yeah, deep time geologic kind of time as well as chemical kind of reactions, these kinds of things.\n\nDr. Sheena Wilson (","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=594.0,600.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): Yeah, yeah. It's matter in the world. And we said, wow, this is really valuable because it has the potential to create all sorts of energy. And then some people took control of oil and owned oil and sold oil and did all sorts of things that meant that oil was very valuable and that the people who controlled oil had a lot of power. And it's really a shame that I didn't shut my phone off before we started all of this. And so if we do the same thing with solar, those same things will happen. And so I have always for many years sort of ended many of my conference presentations with a warning about not fetishizing alternative energies as somehow inherently good. And now as we move into a moment where climate change is being recognized globally, we're setting quite high standards and targets internationally that are difficult to even conceive of how to meet.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=600.0,654.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): And many, many municipalities are declaring climate emergency. How do we respond quickly and meaningfully without assuming that these solar projects, for example, are somehow inherently good or inherently liberatory or more positive or better than the fossil systems that they're replacing? It's so easy to do that. And yet what I see happening is perhaps even worse power relations developing because we're saying, well, it's a time of crisis. We'll deal with social justice later because we really have to deal with the CO2 load of the planet. And that is not how justice is achieved. It is not achieved by deferring it later and later and later after all of the systems have been made. And we would have to literally remake the world once over again. So as we have to now remake things, we have to make them in socially just ways and think in complicated ways the whole time at a pace that's very difficult to achieve.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=654.0,711.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): But our other options are to carry on with business as usual. And then the outcome is quite clear. And it is quite clear to me that those solutions are not adequate to the challenge of climate crisis. Those are band-aid solutions that might reduce the CO2 load, but they're really not going to address the root causes of what created the climate crisis in the first place, which is dealing with nature as though it's distant from us as humans, which is acting as though it's a resource for our exploitation and which also involves treating other bodies, bodies of color, women's bodies, and as resources also to be exploited. And so we have to completely transform the way we think of our human relationality to the planet and other species and ecosystems in order to live better, more meaningfully connected lives. That sound kind of better to me than what I live right now to be frank.\n\nJessie Beier (","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=711.0,763.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): Thank you. I think that that's almost a really good transition actually to think through the Epcor Solar project because these are some of the things that are starting to arise is this question of how, because of the speed and things like in Edmonton, the Declaration of Climate Emergency, there's certain kinds of processes that are now kind of moving forward, but also at the same time, people in different groups coming forward too, to interrupt a little bit and ask these questions about who is benefiting from, in this case, the solar farm. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about how you kind of became involved in the project that is slated for the Edmonton River Valley, which is currently zoned as recreational use, but there are all sorts of processes in place right now being pushed forward in order to rezone that area in order to be able to put this new kind of industry on that land. And so yeah, we can talk more about the process and of course throughout the series we get to speak to many different people about how they also became involved or their responses to the project. But maybe we could talk a little bit more about how you became involved in the project or how you've been hearing about it in relation to some of the spaces that you're in and how this project might provide a site for researching the idea of deep energy literacy and what we've been talking about so far.\n\nDr. Sheena Wilson (","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=763.0,837.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): So I don't know how involved I am. I'm kind of observing and trying to guide where possible and think this through. I'm not imagining that I'm truly involved in the project, nor am I imagining that I have all of the solutions, nor am I observing from a distance with an academic lens and just critiquing everything. I mean, I'm thinking meaningfully about, geez, what do we do in these kinds of situations? And literally taking it back to my colleagues and saying, how do we manage this time? How do we manage it next time? So for a bit of background, I serve on what was formerly called the Edmonton Energy Transition Advisory Committee that advises Edmonton City Council on energy related issues because the city of Edmonton is surprisingly quite sophisticated about its energy transition plans and strategies. We have some colleagues at the University of Alberta and of course the mayor and a lot of the administration to thank for that because this is also thankless work in the province of Alberta.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=837.0,900.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): But I came onto that committee at a time when the energy transition plan was already in place, and it requires a number of different things of city council. It requires the consideration of energy transition and carbon and other things as we move forward. And I'm not good at quoting, maybe we can put something on the website for people to look at or direct them to these plans, but Epcor has proposed to put a solar project or onto the lands of the water treatment facility in the southwest quadrant of the city of Edmonton for a few different reasons. There's a lot of different justifications for it. One of them is a kind of resiliency. So the committee has now transformed to be called Energy Transition Adaptation and Resilience Committee or some such thing. It's a bit hard to remember these acronyms. And the idea is that Edmonton, according to the Energy Transition Strategy, should be producing a certain percentage of its power locally by a specific date.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=900.0,968.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): And that if we have solar panels on the water treatment plant, if there were an energy shortfall or an energy outage that at least the water source of the city would be relatively secured. So that is some of the thinking behind it. But all sort of, so it came to the Energy Transition Advisory Committee in 2018, I believe in December of 2018. We do have a timeline, I should have pulled that up in December of 2018 for us to look at. We did approve it on the basis that it did look like a good energy plan. And after that point, however other issues started to be raised like it's in the Edmonton River Valley. And the River Valley is, I think the River Valley interestingly, is a space that Edmontonians take a lot of pride in it. It's an expansive green space inside an urban area, one of the largest in North America, I believe.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=968.0,1027.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): But the interesting histories behind that are that one of the reasons that we have such a fantastic river valley is that the river has flooded several times. And so there came a point at which residential development on the river banks was no longer permitted because communities had been flooded so many times. We had more than one in 100 floods. And so that is part of the reason that we have this green space. And then the river, of course, has a long history of being an indigenous site for trade and living in life and all of those things. And so when people started to question this El Smith Solar Farm project, I thought, oh geez, I was on the committee that approved that. Oh, I tried to ask all the right questions. I asked questions about consultation. I tried to drill down, read the documents, but the presentation was made by Epcor.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=1027.0,1075.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): And these presentations often look very glossy, and it was hard to read between the lines. I asked the questions that one could imagine might be problematic, and I got answers to them. And people were very concerned initially about the conservation of the River Valley or wildlife corridors that would be disrupted by putting a major industrial project into the river valley. Now, it should be said that the treatment plant already exists there and that the treatment plant actually used to be about 18 or 20 kilometers outside of the city of Edmonton. But another problem we have in Edmonton is urban sprawl. So now it's actually inside what is now the Edmonton municipal area and nestled right in with residential neighborhoods. So there was some concern about not in my backyard or what my view be, those kinds of things and access people concerned about the River Valley are often concerned about conserving it for recreational use and want it to be accessible to Edmontonians.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=1075.0,1140.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): And then others are concerned because it's a space for wildlife and ecologies and fairly sophisticated ecologies. And this spot, particularly in the river, in the river flow as I understand it, is a very interesting site because it hasn't been flooded very many times. And so given that it hasn't been flooded very many times, we've now since discovered that there are indigenous archeological remains there, quite important ones that have now stalled the process. So that's sort of a very quick overview of what's happened over the last 18 months or so. Of course, when the Energy transition Advisory Council voted on this, there was no inkling that these were indigenous ceremonial sites. In fact, Enoch CRE Nation had condoned and given their approval for the project at a certain point, and then once these things were discovered much later, they withdrew their support. And so I went to my own committee literally a year later in on the December meeting in 2019, we'd approved it in 2018.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=1140.0,1201.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): By 2019 December, we knew quite a lot more about it. And I said, given the history and the overview of what's happened in the last year, and given the fact that we're trying to make good decisions on short timelines in order to address the climate emergency, the city of Edmonton to declared a climate emergency in August of 2019, what do we do? How do we model good decision-making practice and good policy-making practice when making quick decisions means sometimes that we discover things partway through a process, and in this case we've discovered something that means that quite likely we would not, I would certainly hope I would not have voted in favor of this project had I had all of the information we have now a year later. So what does this mean? Does this mean that we should actually withdraw our support much like Enoch did?\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=1201.0,1243.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): Or does this mean that we think differently about how we move forward? So how in a time of climate crisis do we move quickly and make decisions? Because not making a decision is also a decision when we decide to constantly defer for 30 or 40 or 50 or 60 years moving on climate action because it can always wait till the next budget cycle or some other reason, or there's a reason to defer now that we can no longer defer anymore on these things. How do we make decisions quickly? And then how do we be really grown up about saying, oh gee, that wasn't the best decision. Maybe let our egos take a bit of a hit and say, well, maybe we should withdraw our support now. And there are always all sorts of politics around this. Of course, I don't want to get into all the nitty gritty, but committees make decisions and then their reputations are called into question.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=1243.0,1287.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): So you don't want to call into question the reputation of a committee that is doing largely good work, supporting the administration and doing good work in forming city council about decisions to somehow lose its legitimacy because of one issue. And yet for me, that one issue is so important as it is to many people because this is an example of how if we keep pushing forward on projects like this, we are going to do immense amounts of damage at this particular historical moment, I think are even more problematic than when they happen, say a hundred years ago. Colonization is ongoing. We've had the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in Canada. We have all of the recommendations and the reports, and if literally we cannot think reconciliation, we cannot think about indigenous land rights, we cannot be respectful of treaty to treaty negotiations and relations at a point in time in which we're supposed to be both transitioning to a new energy system and dealing with all of those issues, we can't somehow think through the two at the same time, well then we're just really not up for the challenge of dealing with the climate crisis and the planet will deal with us.\n\nJessie Beier (","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=1287.0,1349.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): Thanks for that overview. And I think what's really cool about especially this series is that we're able to speak to some of the people that came out and talked about the solar farm from various perspectives. As listeners, we'll find out if they listen to the series. We speak to people like David Dodge, who's also on eTech, which has a slightly new name now, and is also a media producer and advocate around renewable energies and leaders in renewable energies, entrepreneurs who are kind of leading the way. We spoke to Charles Richmond, who is part of the Sierra Club here in Edmonton, who's very interested in conservation within the River Valley. We spoke to people like Raquel Farrow, who's a former physician and also very invested in the question of solar and community solar, and then people like Cody Sharp Head who is a member of Enoch, and also one of the consultation coordinators for Enoch and an archeologist who was involved or at least privy to some of the documentation around the digs in that space. So it's been really interesting to learn about the process of the solar farm and also get people's different perspectives on it. And I just wanted to ask you about the kind of importance of that listening to various groups when it does come to these complex conversations and how this maybe relates to a deep energy literacy approach. Why is it important to draw upon these different perspectives?\n\nDr. Sheena Wilson (","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=1349.0,1429.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): Yeah. One thing I'd add to what you just commented on is that you've named all the people who agreed\n\nJessie Beier (","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=1429.0,1433.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): Be Yes. Yeah. We also spoke to some other people\n\nDr. Sheena Wilson (","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=1433.0,1436.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): That won't be in the podcast. But yeah, we also spoke to a number of people who won't be in the podcast and who have chosen not to be named because we live in a world in which there are power relations linked to energy projects. And their jobs might be at stake, their reputations might be at stake, and so they don't want to be named. So I thought that's also worth mentioning because otherwise our slate looks perhaps a bit jaded towards people very concerned with climate activism when that in fact is not everyone that we spoke to. So I mean, I've read a lot of environmental philosophy, and I understand theoretically and intellectually how different perspectives on the environment intersect and clash with one another at different moments. But it's very interesting to live those beliefs and to talk to people who perhaps don't even know where their thinking aligns and collides with others that they have worked together with to find soar.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=1436.0,1495.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): Because what's interesting about this project is that not only were there unusual suspects protesting the El l Smith Solar Farm project, but also there were some very strange alliances, which often happens in politics too. And so it's been very interesting to have a front row seat to watching how all of that has played out and to understanding it not only as environmental philosophy or a political issue, but also as something that's deeply emotional and there's lots of affect around it. And I think that we also need to understand that climate change evokes a lot of affect of responses, that the demand on us to change our lives evokes a lot of things, fear, excitement, all sorts of things. And so for that reason, it's been very interesting to listen to people meaningfully, to put a real human face to what it means to have very different ecological philosophies coming together in the same person for whatever reasons because of their situatedness in relationship to the project, in relationship to this place that we call Edmonton, that's on Papa's Chase and Cree and Metis lands and Territory six on a planet that is carrying a very high carbon load at the moment.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=1495.0,1578.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): And that is in need for all of us to make dramatic changes. So yeah, I've really enjoyed talking to everyone,\n\nJessie Beier (","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=1578.0,1586.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): And it's been really, really interesting as someone who's able to also listen to the interviews, to hear, again, not just the complexity of the situation, but like you mentioned, the kind of complexity within one person or one kind of group's perspective, that it's not black and white, cut and dry things are messy. And so trying to actually listen, like you said, in order to think through the problem maybe in a different way, which is I guess something that I wanted to ask you about is how you kind of position yourself within a project like this, because of course, we're sharing the interviews with our listeners as part of the podcast, but this is also part of your broader research, something that you're studying in your own research program. And I'm curious to know how you position yourself as someone who is part of some of these committees or who these kinds of projects cross your desk, so to speak, in a professional way, and then it's also part of your research. So you've spoken about this a little bit already, but yeah, I don't know if you wanted to expand a little bit on how you're positioning yourself within the research.\n\nDr. Sheena Wilson (","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=1586.0,1646.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): Yeah, it's a question that I'm asked a lot. It's a question that I think about a lot. It's a question that's hard to answer, so I don't always want to answer it because how I think about it at one time might be quite different than how I think about it another time. But one thing that I think has been consistent for me since I started doing all of this work is that I do this work very much from a position in which I am deeply entrenched and not objective. And I would challenge anybody who makes any claims to objectivity. So 15 years ago, if you were working on these issues, you were basically called a tree hugging communist feminist or something. And people didn't take it very seriously. And certainly if you were making these comments in Alberta, you faced a certain kind of resistance because it was seen as disloyal or problematic.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=1646.0,1704.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): And if you made these statements elsewhere thinking you might find solidarity, then you were seen as an Albertan. And so I do actually come from Alberta, and now I actually live and work here again as an adult. And so I understand, I think a pretty broad spectrum of relationships to, for example, the oil industry to a range of different kinds of identities. And I try to be generous in my thinking with people because I understand that actually most people think they're doing the right thing, and when they don't, they are usually motivated by trying to do another right thing, which might be provide for their family or be loyal to something, whatever it is, ideas of what it means to be Albertan to an employer, to, I dunno, a cohort group, a network, something like that. And what's also interesting is that, for example, with El l Smith solar project, basically nobody went into that with some sort of grand villainous plan.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=1704.0,1784.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): I mean, every person involved in these projects thinks they're helping something in some way. People want to put in solar projects for many different reasons. And I think in the case of El Smith Solar Farm, it's really to respond to the demands of Edmontonians to begin an energy transition. And the project itself would be in the River valley, and it would stand as a symbol because for people using it as a recreational space, they would see this large solar project, solar functions in an interesting way, that way because it's very visible and it would be a visible sign that we're making a transition, it would also mean that a greater percentage of our energy load was being created locally. And this becomes important for many kinds of renewables because unlike fossil energy, they cannot be transported such great distances. But nobody went into the L Smith Solar Project thinking that they were doing something problematic or bad.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=1784.0,1838.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): What they thought was, I'm doing all these fantastic things. And sometimes it can be a bit of an affront to the ego to find out that your fantastic noble, socially justice motivated project runs up against somebody else's rights or what they're working for. And in this case, runs up against what some Edmontonians want from their river valley, runs up against what indigenous communities are demanding from Canada in nation to nation relationships, in terms of respecting the land and the histories that are buried in the archeological findings of the land. And so it's about being flexible and able to get a bit of a bruised ego because social justice is difficult, but instead of getting too caught up in where our conflicts are, I really just keep saying, let's just align our Soar. There are so many soar that can be organized around energy transition. And yes, sometimes they'll bump up against each other, but then let's just be honest and say, geez, I didn't realize that, or I never thought of that, or What can I learn from you about this in this moment?\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=1838.0,1903.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): And what can I learn in this moment that can carry us forward in a more socially just way to achieve a more equitable future, a more equitable transition, a more equitable future. So yeah, everybody's all doing the best we can. We're all making decisions quickly. Some of us are making good decisions, bad decisions, we have to try things. Some things will work, some things will fail. Some projects will be good, some won't be good, but say, Hey, okay, that one had a few problems with it, and some of them probably could have been avoided if we thought of this, this, and this. So we're going to take those things into consideration next time and next time it still might be a boondoggle. There'll be things we didn't foresee, but we have to stop being so arrogant about these things and saying, well, this is the way things are done, and this policy is here because of this.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=1903.0,1943.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): Because what are policies and what are laws actually there? They're the institutionalization a lot of times of social injustice and power relations. So really, most of these policies probably need to be remade. So where we can see that happening be part of the change. So I just say if people want to cry, hypocrite, we are all hypocrites. We can't live outside of this system. We live in a global petro culture. And people love to critique Greta these days because she's speaking here in North America about environmental issues, and there have been indigenous people saying these things for a long time. And so I just say, yes, Greta's saying these things, and some people are listening and they can listen differently to Greta than to indigenous people. And if the media is going to give Greta a lot of attention, then the media can't then act as though Greta created these imperial structures.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=1943.0,1997.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): The media itself is also part of this imperial colonial history of giving a lot of attention to cute young white girls and not so much to indigenous activists. And so I just think everybody has to do something in this transition. So whatever you're bringing to it, Greta's bringing something to it, other people are bringing other things to it, and we all live in it. So none of us, even if you're vegan and you don't drive a car and you, I dunno, levitate to work, I dunno, you're still part of this system. You still live in a global culture in which everything in your world is probably made from oil or petrochemicals to some degree, whether that means that the actual material textural stuff is petrochemical or it was moved around the world that way. And certainly this is even more true for all of the developed nations that have most benefited from these exploitations. And so yeah, we're all in it. We're all it together. So there's no sense pointing fingers and saying, you're more in it than me. Let's instead just say, how do we get out of this together? Right?\n\nJessie Beier (","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=1997.0,2065.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): Yeah, I think that's what I appreciate about your work so much. And also thinking through kind deep similarities and deep energy literacy is trying to really grapple with both the material, these cultural kinds of assemblages that we're all part of, but also the immaterial assemblages, which you mentioned before, these questions around anxiety and affect and desire and how we're linked up not only through our infrastructures and our roads and our things like that, but also how we're linked up through these things that are much harder to point to through these emotional affective relationships as well. And I think that that's what I've learned so much from you working through these questions, is how to position ourselves in a way that of course, we're implicated, we're all part of this hypo criticism is in many ways I find it a distracting accusation, this kind of question of hypo criticism, but instead working together to think through the questions in deeper ways, which again, I think leads back to the question or the approach of deep energy literacy.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=2065.0,2129.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): So I guess that leads to a bigger question and maybe coming close to the end of our little chat is how your work around deep energy literacy in this case around deep similarities and thinking through problems with many different people, even if they're coming from different perspectives, how all of this is kind of invested in a bigger question of imaginaries and future imaginaries and how we might imagine more livable futures for all. Or as you've kind of mentioned before, imagine the transition is not being something that is characterized by loss or giving up certain things, although that might be necessary, but actually characterized by the idea of being able to gain a different way of being in the world that actually might be something that we desire. So I'm curious to hear a little bit more about, or if you could speak a little bit more about how this question of future imaginings and speculations might play into politics of the present and how the question of a speculative energy future plays into your work.\n\nDr. Sheena Wilson (","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=2129.0,2190.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): Yeah. I run this project called Just Powers, and when I started out, it was pretty clear that it was going to be a research creation project informed by intersectional and decolonial and indigenizing praxis and methods and that kind of thing. And I thought, well, we'll get people together and we'll imagine other futures and we'll write all these great stories and help people imagine this. I mean, all we have now are pictures of apocalypse and Will Smith striding down the street guns a blazing. This is how people think of the future. They're often very dark. The movie industry's made a lot of money about thinking this way. And I could get into all the reasons that happens and what the worldviews are that inform that, but how do we do this? So then it became quite evident early on interviewing hundreds of people really in the first couple of years and asking every single one of them at the end of the interview about imaginaries that actually our ability to think the future as anything other than the present was pretty atrophied.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=2190.0,2255.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): And if we could, then it always kind of went to these apocalyptic ideas that while people might think they're being original or actually already highly scripted by the narratives that exist in the world, whether they're biblical or coming out of Hollywood. And so I've been taking very seriously what it means to really exercise our imaginaries. And I've also been doing a lot of thinking and advocating for this as serious intellectual research and work because we have speculative financial futures that are very serious. This is serious business. People are banking lots of money on this, right? And yet, somehow, if we talk about imagining other ways of living together or imagining other futures, this seems very fruity, like something that artists and writers do, and writers and artists somehow, I think probably sort of globally, but certainly in western culture, certainly in our petro culture, where highly paid masculinized labor forces are practical and much more valued than say, working on an imaginary of the future.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=2255.0,2334.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): I think that we really need to rethink that. What are we without these imaginaries of the future? What are we as humans if we aren't the stories that we are telling and the stories that explain ourselves in relation to the world? And so since we need to remake our relations to the world, we really need to remake some stories. And so I've been thinking about that with artists and policymakers and engineers and scientists working on collaborative teams, for example, on speculative energy futures. And I think it's important that we all take on this work of thinking, not just the practicalities of what does it mean to power my house with a solar panel, but what does it mean to live in a future in which I cannot live the way I'm living now? Whether that's because in my community we don't respond to climate crisis, and therefore we're unprepared for the futures that await us because the planet and the ecosystems are transforming, or whether that means because we live entirely differently because we have responded to the imperatives of the moment.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=2334.0,2404.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): So yeah, I take it as serious business. It's very serious business, and I do that work in meaningful, interdisciplinary ways because I think that the challenges of the 21st century cannot be solved without interdisciplinary work, the problems that originate in thinking in disciplinary ways, whether that means that you work in a ministry in the government, there's one ministry for energy, one ministry for natural resources, one ministry for something else, and I'm like, how are natural resources and energy and forest? How are these all different ministries? How does that even make sense? And it doesn't make sense. It means that decisions are being made and communication isn't happening. So it also means that we need to communicate better as humans, and we need to have ways of doing that quickly and with more people on the planet than they've ever been on the planet before. So if we need to learn anything in the world beyond living differently and living differently in relationship to one another and all of that, we need to learn to tell those stories and share those ideas because we shouldn't all have to reinvent the wheel.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=2404.0,2483.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): I mean, there's lots of great things happening on the planet when people throw all the impossibilities at me. There's already plenty of examples of places that are making the transition, have made the transition living differently, are living great lives healthier. The thing is that the benefits, I constantly say, why does everyone think that change is lost? Change can be gained. We could have better lives. I can think of a lot of ways in which my life would be better if it wasn't organized this way. And I think about this in terms of women and in terms of women's lives and in terms of all of our lives. I also think about this in terms of what role I play in reproducing these maybe not grand systems of injustice, like institutions take on these things like equity, diversity, inclusion. We try to think socially just ways.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=2483.0,2531.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): But how does sending gazillions of emails every day to all of your colleagues and demanding things on a short timeline that really aren't necessary also perpetuate a system in which we're all expending too much personal energy? Maybe we could transform the way we work in relationship to other people so that we can all power down a little bit in so many meaningful ways that also would have an impact on the energy systems and the load on the energy systems. There's just so many ways in which our lives are completely toxic. Whether that means because we all work 24 7 in North America, either out of necessity because we work in precarious employment or because we have secure jobs in which this is just part of the culture that's demanded of us as an expectation. And how, for example, studying this treatment plant, the treatment plant keeps having to expand or grow or go through renovations, that kind of thing, because, well, the population's expanding.\n\n(","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=2531.0,2586.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): We can think about that, and we have plans for our population to expand anymore. Maybe we'll do a future podcast series on the city plan for the city of Edmonton that imagines our population doubling, which will also increase our energy demand loads when we know that we already live on a planet that has probably too many people. And what does it mean also that we probably, I mean, I don't want to make any grand claims. I'm still researching this, but we probably have to treat the water more and differently because we are contaminating it more and differently through our industrial practices, through the kinds of clothing that we wear, that shed petrochemicals and microbeads and everything else into the water systems that then have to be treated at all these treatment plants that then require solar farms on them to keep them going. There's just so many ways in which we're increasing the load and the demand on each other and on our environments, because we're just not living in very healthy ways. So we can talk about riding bikes and not driving cars and wearing organic cotton and not shedding microbeads. Or we can talk meaningfully about how do we completely remake our world, remake our relationships to each other, power down in real and meaningful ways in every facet of our lives so that we might live more generous, joyful human and multispecies love affairs. I don't know.\n\nJessie Beier (","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=2586.0,2670.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): Yeah. Yeah, I hear that. Well, thank you so much for the chat. I've learned so much as always, and I can't wait to continue the conversations. And thanks to our listeners as well. In the episodes that follow, we'll explore this idea of deep energy literacy and specifically deep similarities in more depth and with other people. So please visit us online@justpowers.ca to follow the conversation.\n\nDr. Sheena Wilson (","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=2670.0,2694.0"},{"id":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692/transcript/74589/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"): Thank you for listening to the Deep Energy Literacy Podcast. Be sure to visit just powers.ca to learn more about these issues, access resources, and discover related content. Just Powers is made possible by support from the University of Alberta's Future Energy Systems Canada. First Research Excellence Fund, the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada, the Cool Institute of Advanced Study and kaja. This series of the Deep Energy Literacy Podcast is produced by Jesse Byer and engineered by Catlin w Cusick.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://ualberta.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1775/collection_resources/75849/file/162692#t=2694.0,2736.19733"}]}]}]}